So I guess I had to put my dumb hand back on the hot stove again. I have taken a year off from my rabid militancy - trying to get something done about the Denton Trinity Greenbelt mess. I guess I wasn't cured. It is just a mess, and has been for years. Where to start? I did a search through the TFF, and saw nothing pop on the search. Such a great stretch of paddling - now a continuing slow motion train wreck. I am looking for REAL activists and REAL organizers - interested in trying to get something happening here in 2024.
I have written a lot, and done a number of videos, but I am not about to pump links in here - to any of that - unless requested. What I will do, is show you a couple of images from the kayak launch ramp at the TPWD 380 Greenbelt Park. I shot these Saturday, December 2, 2023.


Below this are paved steps of what once was a great put-in for kayakers - leading down to the Elm Fork of the Trinity just off HWY380.

This is the Trinity River at the TPWD HWY380 Park - managed by TPWD.

This is the parking lot. It has only one working light, and will flood again when there is a downpour into the watershed below the Dam, OR when there is a major release from the Dam at Ray Roberts.

Any questions? Any young gladiators willing to take on multiple governmental agencies all at once? Trust me, it won't be a fair fight - ON THEIR PART.

So they dont maintain the ramp as it gets flooded every spring? Is the river itself navigable or is it jammed up too?

The Elm Fork of the Trinity River from Ray Roberts Dam to Lewisville Lake has been log jammed in several places along the stretch - for years. I plan on documenting the entire thing from the air this spring. This jam at the HWY380 Park has been sitting there for years. Changing the subject a little, I did get two written responses from two people contacted this morning. They are Robbie Merritt - TPWD Park Superintendent for Lake Ray Roberts and Gary Packan from City of Denton. All three, City of Denton, TPWD and USACE are part of this mess. Here are the responses today:

Robbie Merritt:
"Hope things are good in your world, (other than the river situation of course), and that South Texas treated you well. We made a lot of headway on trail enhancement projects this year, to improve access to the Greenbelt, despite the floods. Still plenty more of that to work towards in 2024. But, I know you don’t care about any of that and the log jams are still definitely a challenge.
I haven’t heard the status on the Denton/USACE CAP program in a while. But, partnering with our TPWD Inland Fisheries Division, we did have the opportunity to apply for a grant through the US Fish and Wildlife Service’s National Fish Passage Program last winter. Unfortunately, it does not appear that the Elm Fork was selected for that round. I’m waiting to hear back from our biologists to get an update on whether that opportunity might be available to us again in 2024. That’s been the best opportunity we’ve found so far and definitely fits right in with your primary goal.
That’s all of the updates I have at this stage. But, always happy to chat if you’d like."
____________________

Gary Packan:
"Thank you for the email. The City had applied for Continuing Authorities Program (CAP) in 2021/22 but not selected for funding for this area.
The Cooper Creek flooding study that was submitted in 2015 did receive CAP assistance from USACE this year although this will not impact that area. Hopefully the project could be funded in the future although timing is unknown.
Ill see if I can track down contact information for the Colonel and send it over."
Gary

I can only imagine how bad it is... have seen the same thing on the Neches upstream from Lake Palestine in the springtime... got caught up in the river after a big rain further up the watershed the day before that was just reaching Chandler area where I was fishing... when I finally turned around to go back down river a couple of miles, the water was really pouring through and almost impossible to make 90 degree turn with current.. got stuck more than once and jammed kayak sideways against fallen timber.. I was skeered. Havent tried that river stuff since.

Shannon: Maybe someone, some night should put a sign out on the road that says: FREE FIREWOOD! IslandJim

or start a rumor about the great fishing

It is a complete lost cause unfortunately. The park was lucky to have funding to redo the bike trails. I started with contacting Clear Creek Natural Heritage Center and they were amazing to chat with and reached out to all their contacts all the way to Austin. The Govt spent millions to get that park repaired over 10 years ago just to have another major flood and wipe the whole thing out. The Govt will NOT do that again. The city wont touch it unless the logs touch the bottom of the bridge. Otherwise they don't give a hoot. A discussion was even brought up about using dynamite to blast through the log jams but then you got the tree hugging bird lovers that said no. You can't disrupt nature. The log jams are just as solid as a regular island. No flood will move them now. You would need a bulldozer and dynamite.

This stretch by 380 has a special place in my mind as it was the first place my daughter learned how to kayak and fish when she was 10.

Well, I guess I am here with the hope it is not a complete lost cause. But do I feel like it is? Heck yes. Here is the very quick response I got a couple days ago:
Howdy Shannon,

“Hope things are good in your world, (other than the river situation of course), and that South Texas treated you well. We made a lot of headway on trail enhancement projects this year, to improve access to the Greenbelt, despite the floods. Still plenty more of that to work towards in 2024. But, I know you don’t care about any of that and the log jams are still definitely a challenge.

I haven’t heard the status on the Denton/USACE CAP program in a while. But, partnering with our TPWD Inland Fisheries Division, we did have the opportunity to apply for a grant through the US Fish and Wildlife Service’s National Fish Passage Program last winter. Unfortunately, it does not appear that the Elm Fork was selected for that round. I’m waiting to hear back from our biologists to get an update on whether that opportunity might be available to us again in 2024. That’s been the best opportunity we’ve found so far and definitely fits right in with your primary goal.

That’s all of the updates I have at this stage. But, always happy to chat if you’d like. Looks like I have some time next week on Monday or Wednesday.”

Many Thanks,

Robbie Merritt

Park Superintendent/Park Police
Ray Roberts Lake State Park Complex
Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
940-300-4064

Shannon-

“Thank you for the email. The City had applied for Continuing Authorities Program (CAP) in 2021/22 but not selected for funding for this area.

The Cooper Creek flooding study that was submitted in 2015 did receive CAP assistance from USACE this year although this will not impact that area. Hopefully the project could be funded in the future although timing is unknown.

Ill see if I can track down contact information for the Colonel and send it over.”

Gary

Now, I have head worse responses over the many years, but I have not had any any better than this one. That says a lot actually. The missing link - The USACE Fort Worth Commander. I did not contact the new Colonel there, Colonel Calvin Kroeger. Link: Colonel Calvin Kroeger Commander USACE Fort Worth

I am a huge proponent of kid-dyno-mite. The reason is? It does not pollute or damage the surrounding banks like dozers and barge borne cranes would do. EACH dynamite hole, of what was once a solid fish dam? IT BECOMES a series of FISHING HOLES along the river! Way too logical for today's governments I am afraid.

TPWD has proven time and time again that they have very poor foresight and hire low quality third party contractors.
I won’t make a list of bad decisions going back to 1980 Conroe triploid grass carp that seem to live 40 years and/or actually reproduce or they got duped and purchased regular cheap grass carp to 2020 Fairfield passivity and will only elaborate on the downstream Trinity River launch area at Hebron. Same mistake over and over; must have spent millions building in an area that gets decimated by horrible flooding every 5-10 years and completely screw up the ramp location and design.

I honestly hate calling it a lost cause and that was prolly a poor choice of words. I love this stretch of the greenbelt especially south of the bridge. Multiple times I had kayaked from lake Lewisville all the way up to 380 catching so many varities of fish with my daughter.

@CCTX I agree with you on that kayak launch at Hebron. It was such a great idea, but poor planning on the location.

I guess I have to look forward more than backward. I took a year off from this gigantic mess, and am trying to do a better job of energizing the masses - because we know the masses are increasing in DFW every single day. Growth demands relief IMO, natural relief. Time to see if the frogs want to turn off the boiling water they find themselves in (DFW), and get away from this daily insanity we find ourselves in now.

I hear ya. In my opinion, they are only going to cater to the bikers and walkers and will not do anything with the water situation.

The ONLY situation that will help is Mother Nature. She will need to create a really good flood and Ray Roberts will need to release a lot of water. Then at some point the water needs to reach 380 or literally go over the bridge and shut down the highway. At that point, they will have no choice then to do something about the blockage. I was told by someone once that if the blockage ever created any danger on that bridge, everyone would get involved.

Not sure how it is lately but I can say that once upon a time there were a few UNT professors that would use that area for field trips/instruction/projects on freshwater related topics. I personally did my capstone thesis on zebra mussels moving down the Elm Fork below Ray Roberts and used that ramp many times to launch a canoe for sampling trips. Another guy I knew needed it for native mussel sampling. If I was wanting to organize some sort of cleanup I would start at the EESAT building at UNT and talk to some staff and maybe put up some flyers for student volunteers if they were cool with that.

A sad state of affairs on several fronts. The thought occurs.........this is the kind of thing communities used to do for themselves.

Texas Parks & Wildlife unfortunately will NOT allow for public intrusion. A group of us (kayakers) wanted to volunteer to get in their with chainsaws when the area first began getting blocked by driftwood. That got shot down as it could have caused stress on the wildlife in the area. Now it will literally take a backhoe and LOTS of government approvals to make anything happen down their now. This is what it looks like now. See any water?

I used to fish this stretch of river regularly and it held a lot of crappie, white bass and hybrids back in the day. I am going to venture up there soon and film it all as well as put the video out. I don't have a big following by any means but maybe I can get the right peoples attentions from it. It is a shame that is has come to this but I agree with the above post that the only help we will get is from Mother Nature. It is going to take a monsoon to flood that area enough for it to go over the road or threaten to wash it out. It most certainly will happen its just a matter of when... All that water can't flow down fast enough and will only go up.

Then various government departments (local and federal) got drunk on misinformation, power, and bribes... just saying.

JJ4MEL - Yeah, I volunteered to drag wood out of the jam into the parking lot - FOR FREE FIREWOOD FOR THE CITIZENS - and that was denied as well. Think of all that wood, keeping people warm, made into things ... Look this is a problem that will not go away on its own - PERIOD. Mother Nature? Once Lake Ray Roberts was impounded? Mother Nature had already been spanked. So after that point, this stretch (Ray Roberts to Lewisville) needed human management. I disagree completely with the Mother Nature idea, unless you have the key to me living another hundred years.
Definitely need to go to UNT asap. Names of contacts there? Anybody connected to people there willing to reach out?

My latest article - https://texasflycaster.com/denton-greenbelt-380-park/
The Website Page - https://texasflycaster.com/denton-greenbelt/

AND I am debating launch of www.dentongreenbelt.com . If I can get a little volunteer (constant-long-term) help with it, I'll do it. Meanwhile I hate using "I" all the time, but until there is an organized "WE" ...

I live very near Cooper Lake in Delta County and the upstream feeders all have this issue; some more severe than others but mainly the Middle Sulphur River. The experience up here has been you can clean it up but as soon as the next heavy rains come it will look like no one has ever cleaned anything up since the lake was built. We have a log jam in the Middle Sulphur that I am told stretches for a mile or two up stream from the lake and it continuously grows. About the only places they focus on around here are the bridges. They'll get so piled up in one flood cycle that the water flow could destroy them the next time around if they didn't keep them cleared.

Well I am not alone after all! Unfortunate for you as well.
If we take the time to really think about this, there are bigger reasons why this happened, and why it happened now instead of 10-15-20 years ago. You know I am going to say it, so just cover your eyes. Global warming. I am not saying it to argue about why it is warming, it simply is warming for whatever reason(s).
More severe droughts. More dead trees. More dead trees by the drought stricken waterways. More radical rain events. More flooding. Flooding washes out the deadfall and we get what we got.
The USACE concept "Let Nature Take It's Course" is impossible to defend or support now. Once a river gets dammed, like the Elm Fork of the Trinity, nature is done taking its course. Now, with "temperature change," and no hands-on management NOW or in the FUTURE? Nature taking its course will take a hundred years or more to self-correct, and I would say it will NEVER self-correct.
Not only has this mismanagement rerouted the river, it has created a marshland that nature taking its course never would have created. Trees are now drowned, and dead. The natural habitat for these animals is drowned. Vast areas of the bottoms are useless for more decades to come - unless the river is allowed to again flow it's natural course.
NOTE: I have had not a single person contact me to be a part of the solution either.

Global warming has nothing to do with this. This kind of thing is natural and has been happening since the beginning of time. If you go look at big river systems on google earth such as the trinity downstream and the Mississippi River, you will see oxbows and cut off lakes all over the place. The rivers get dammed up and change course over time leaving behind the scars on the land. The biggest factor here is the damming of the lakes and the river itself. The water slows when it is dammed up and so the rivers don't flow like they used to and logs pile up.

I am down to help but I am not sure what we can do without outside help.

^^Exactly this^^

KidKrappie is 100% correct... We messed with a natural river by damming it in several places and it caused issues that need to be managed from time to time (this is a net good thing because it created habitable land). Nothing more, nothing less. Because of this, the State and/or Counties should spend a little money to clean this up as needed.

It only needs to be managed to allow us to enjoy it for recreational purposes. Meaning, a few jams along the way will not stop the actual water because water will always find a way. Rather, the jams simply stop our ability to float a plastic boat down the waterway. In my opinion, this is a first-world problem.

Global warming is not real? Pretty sure the science shows the globe is warming. I don't care about the reason for warming, it's a scientific fact. And its a fact the globe has warmed and cooled over thousands of years. We just happen to be here now. Will we live long enough for it to cool off? Not me. I believe this bout of higher temperatures causes more unstable weather patterns. Do you? And in those patterns we have more intense heat and sometimes drought, followed by more intense rain events. Do you agree? Let's get out of these weeds and just move forward ...

Now, once civilization steps in to "manage" an area, like the Greenbelt from Ray Roberts to Lewisville? That kind of trumps the natural science of the past million or so years, right? Meaning the oxbows, and other rerouting of the rivers everywhere on the map. So once (the) man steps in to say, this is for us! This is for our recreational experience! Does the man not have a duty to try and keep it at some level of viability for their original intended original purpose? If not, let's plow it all and let nature take its course.

Thanks for being down to help, and I too am not sure what we can do without some outside help. I do know there are places not to go and seek help now ... I got sucked into a true cesspool earlier this week, called Reddit. That place is downright dangerous - people with all kinds of misinformation, racist, agist and hundreds of people sitting at their keyboards all day at work, not working but trolling on Reddit. Sickos. As soon as the clocks strike 5, they stop posting until the next morning. I guess most are working for the man? Anyway, they succeeded in running me off after two days of their insanity

.

I wanted to make sure I didn't know what I was talking about! The term "global warming" refers only to man's participation in the warming of the earth's temperatures - so I am not debating with anyone on that. Here is what Chat says about the way I think it is:

Earth's average temperature has varied over thousands of years due to natural factors such as changes in solar radiation, volcanic activity, and variations in Earth's orbit (known as Milankovitch cycles). These natural variations have led to ice ages, when large portions of Earth's surface were covered in ice, as well as warmer periods, such as the Holocene Climate Optimum, when temperatures were warmer than today.

However, the current rate of global warming, driven by human activities, is unprecedented in Earth's history. The rapid increase in greenhouse gas concentrations since the Industrial Revolution has led to a warming trend that far exceeds natural variability. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) has concluded that it is extremely likely that human activities have been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.

That is all it says - unedited.

The area in question is between two dammed reservoirs. We messed with the waterway by slowing the water flow to zero for several weeks at a time. We also use the adjoining acreage for flood control, thus killing off trees. These two things (dead trees and zero water flow for weeks at a time) have caused the log jams.

To the best of my knowledge, these reservoirs and the greenbelt between are managed by the Corps of Engineers. If so, they are literal engineers and literal conservationists and might have determined that the created "wetlands" are just fine as they are. If this is the case, no amount of activism will make them clean it up.

Also, the jams have gotten so bad that we (volunteer civilians) can't clean it up alone. It will need a small barge with a grapple crane and chipper to clear the area. Given the fact that this area is part of two very nice recreational lakes (each being well-maintained), I don't anticipate that the State/Corps will allocate the resources to clean this up... especially because said efforts will only be temporary.

I appreciate your efforts and am not attempting to debate the issue, just sharing how I see the situation (i.e.: lost cause).

The Trinity south of Lewisville is navigatable/fishable. You might want to give this area a try.

The best analysis I have seen.
I had a dream about it though, and saw a potential solution in that dream. WAY TOO MUCH TIME SPENT THINKING ABOUT THIS!
Not only can the problem be solved, the improvement will be permanent and still beautiful to behold - in the long run.
It is extremely debatable and would be controversial AT FIRST.

1) Clear Cut the shoreline to the distance of the max height of a native tree. So a tree that falls will not reach the water.
2) Do it with (many) overhanging tree intervals - in areas that are not as prone to erosion.
3) Clear the waterway. Keep it clear using the new access (from the clearcut).
4) Essentially, this will convert the area into a "meadow-like" flowing river - in appearance. (Think NOT TEXAS-looking meadows.)
5) Accept that there will still be overflowing of the banks (flooding), but not due to multiple areas of blocked riverway.
6) Those areas where flooding provides ongoing evidence of where it will flow, create offshooting ponds that will be habitat for migratory birds.
7) Those areas where the flooding shoots off into the meadow? Build boardwalks over the wetlands or best case - over channels that lead to the ponds.

NO I did not dream all this at once! But when I woke up, I saw it all at once.
Anybody got a couple-hundred-mil? Government workers are expensive these days. Private funds are the way to go I think ... Call it The Jerry Jones Prairie or somesuch (not really).
The clearing of the waterway leads to clear cutting anyway (see the piece on the S side of 380 at the park).

So have you pitched Jerry Jones the proposal? His name forever wondering the banks of Trinity river. I think he is your only hope. And he has a few big guys on his pay role too.

I did not say Global warming was not real because it is. It is a fact. I just don't think global warming had anything to do with the river getting jammed up. That process is natural and has been occurring since the beginning of time.

I can't help but feel that this is more on the TPWD side. The corp owns the land but the fishery is managed by TPWD. This is a recreation/biological issue and so I feel it would fall on them. Who knows. I am seeing first hand that fish have trouble making it up stream to their spawning grounds because of all of the blockages. It is trapping them and making them more susceptible to angling pressure

So, here's the thing. . . I've been reading this thread, and I applaud your valiant and diligent effort to have this place turned into a great recreational area, but it is just too expensive to maintain throughout the year; every year. I've been around that area since the mid-70s, and there is always a drought or a flood. As soon as the State or Corps spends 100s of thousands of dollars to establish it as a safe and fun recreational space, then will come the 6 months of rain as we had in 2019/2020. Six Solid Months. . . And that happens every few years. The Trinity is Always gonna flood and wipe out all the improvements. Bottom line is it is just Not Cost-Effective. And the "dream" you had would cost Millions of dollars to complete a project like that. As I said at the top. . . I applaud your desire and efforts.

I do remember when it was a nice place to go. . . But then came the rains.

Yes, and I think that’s the point here.
The Trinity River and its basin have been a riddle that north Texas has never solved and will never be solved.
I believe the Trinity flooding of 1908 and then 1922 are the two most devastating natural events in DFW history…more devastating than any tornado.

For over a hundred years, DFW has spent hundreds of millions making her smaller and more manageable. This direction, of course was reversed about thirty years ago with the Trinity River project, with the desire to make the River bigger again as it runs through the downtown areas….now they are having second thoughts on degrees of expansion.

The powers at DFW are rudderless when it comes to a clear goal for the Trinity….and it’s understandable. It’s a bizarre river and watershed. It’s too shallow for any significant transportation and can go a decade dry and pathetic. Then, we can get a two week twenty year rain from Nocona to Sanger, and it turns into the Mississippi for a month.

In the meantime, we can take comfort in knowing that we can simply use one of the dozen well-maintained TPWD/Coprs areas that are within a 20-mile radius at what I believe to be a reasonable cost (i..e: generally free to $7).

Net net, I think the TPWD does a pretty good job... they have had a few losers (this is not the only one in DFW). However, for the most part, I think that they do a pretty good job in a zero-income tax state.

Just my two cents. Take it for what it is.

I apologize in advance - for getting a little, shall we say, emotional on this topic. It's wearing me out again. I need a vacation far away for a long time.

You are fighting a losing battle here.

You seem to be hyper-focused on a few miles of an otherwise reasonably well-maintained waterway. This few miles kinda sucks (I get it), but the rest is reasonably well maintained.

So is 8 miles a few miles? You lost me here. Maybe I'm ignorant. "Reasonably well maintained" means what? Maybe you have seen something recently, that I missed? This used to be a wide open end-to-end Ray Roberts to Lewisville Lake run. I guess you knew that. If you watch the two videos, one is focused on HWY380 TPWD park, which is useless. The other focuses on the other end at TPWD Ray Roberts Dam Park, where the kayak steps are useless because they drop into a mud bog, not the Elm Fork anymore. And if you are a fishing person who kayaks? The primary fish we used to catch end-to-end are GONE. So with both ends a wasteland, and the TPWD 428 Park suffering from log jams nearby and a silted in kayak launch ... I guess there cold be a "reasonably well-maintained" section somewhere. No one is able to get ON it because there is no reasonably well-maintained kayak access launch point ...

But, you are fundamentally onto something - I will be seeing and showing the REST of the log jams along the rest of the Elm Fork once I have an opportunity. If you would like to have a real adventure, please feel free to come with me! Not only will I be getting as much of the Elm Fork exposed as I can possibly do, I will also be launching at the Dam Park at Ray Roberts (when the weather is more stable) and seeing just how far I can reasonably go. Then, if possible, portage, and keep on going. Should be a real blast!!

Im talking about the Trinity River in the DFW region... yes, most of it is reasonably well-maintained and portions of it (mostly on the West Fork branch) are downright gorgeous.

They allowed this section (between two reservoirs) to serve as a flood control area and get log jammed... they keep the rest of it clear... This tells me that they are "allowing" it on this section rather than "ignoring" it.

Just sharing how I see it. You do you.

I see. The only thing I am talking about here is Elm Fork from Ray Roberts to Lewisville Lake, sort of, to Lewisville Lake. It's sort of all over the place actually. This is not just about fishing, or me, or you. This is about exponential growth in (I'll stick to where I live) Denton proper and Denton County AND the lack of recreational waterways for the new arrivals from other places. I really am not doing me folks.

SO I STOPPED AT THE RAMP at the 455 Dam Park, a TPWD managed park to the edge of the water TODAY, and here's what I found at the northernmost Canoe "launch" point at the bend of the River.

Looks great, a pathway, a sign and the mystery of what's through the opening.

Here is what awaits people who do not get out of their cars - to actually look out below. Not exactly a TPWD showcase, is it?

And just in case that looks like water to you? Look again, up close. A USACE mosquito infested mud bog.