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Re: Ethanol [Re: James Tucker] #3604239 06/20/09 07:45 PM
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AllenG Offline
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Originally Posted By: FishHauler
And I know if Tina Turner can do it, our elected "savior" should be able to as well.


rolfmao

This reminds me of the R12 freon thing!!! noidea

Re: Ethanol [Re: AllenG] #3604760 06/20/09 11:36 PM
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I, for one, would love to see more natural gas powered vehicles. I'm sitting on top of the Haynesville Shale gas field. thumb


Now, Donald...please pick John Bolton for your running mate.
Re: Ethanol [Re: OldFrog] #3605225 06/21/09 02:19 AM
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o k here I go,
Natural gas is a much higher octane rating than gas or ethanol.
Natural gas is very readily available and in fact we now have a huge surplus.
Natural gas as of right now is selling for $3.99 MMBTU.
Natural gas storage as of right now is 2,557 billion cubic feet.
Natural gas can be available for fueling vehicles with minimal work due to the pipelines already being in place.
last but not least Natural Gas leaves 0 emisions that harm the atmosphere, so the tree huggers are appeased, your vehicle will not require oil changes as frequently due to no carbon or gas breakdown.
I could go on but I think you get the point, this puts ALOT of people to work, gives us a viable energy source for ALOT of years,eases the need for foriegn oil greatly, and the best part of all is if a system is implemented to have fill stations readly available as gas stations are then the price will be like the gas was in the 60's (yeah I'm that old, 15 cent gas).
again sorry for the length but Ethanol is not the answer to our problems, nor is biodiesel (whole other story there) we could be self suficient for at least 15-20 yrs if the idiots would let us drill our own oil and gas. nuff said.



" Hop, set the hook"!
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lake fork FISHERMANS COVE MARINA/reservations - 903 474 7479
Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3605798 06/21/09 06:05 AM
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"....Natural gas as of right now is selling for $3.99 MMBTU..."

I sure wish it would go to $10. rolfmao


Now, Donald...please pick John Bolton for your running mate.
Re: Ethanol [Re: James Tucker] #3605971 06/21/09 12:15 PM
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Michial Thompson Offline
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Originally Posted By: FishHauler
I have seen the cost of feed of for my cattle go up because of the increase in the demand for corn. Since the "libs" are saying that cattle are making too much methane, why dont the figure a way to gather and use this "DANGEROUS" flamable gas? Ya'll ever seen the third "Mad Max"? Tina Turner was running a whole city on methane (pig farts)


Really??? The feed your buying this year was harvested last year when gas was $4.00 per gallon, and diesel even hire than that. I'm guessing that has way more to do with the cost of your feed than the demand for ethonol....

When the price of Sugar goes up to astronimic points then I will believe that ethonol is causing food costs to increast substantially.

Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3605977 06/21/09 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: hopalong123
o k here I go,
Natural gas is a much higher octane rating than gas or ethanol.
Natural gas is very readily available and in fact we now have a huge surplus.
Natural gas as of right now is selling for $3.99 MMBTU.
Natural gas storage as of right now is 2,557 billion cubic feet.
Natural gas can be available for fueling vehicles with minimal work due to the pipelines already being in place.
last but not least Natural Gas leaves 0 emisions that harm the atmosphere, so the tree huggers are appeased, your vehicle will not require oil changes as frequently due to no carbon or gas breakdown.
I could go on but I think you get the point, this puts ALOT of people to work, gives us a viable energy source for ALOT of years,eases the need for foriegn oil greatly, and the best part of all is if a system is implemented to have fill stations readly available as gas stations are then the price will be like the gas was in the 60's (yeah I'm that old, 15 cent gas).
again sorry for the length but Ethanol is not the answer to our problems, nor is biodiesel (whole other story there) we could be self suficient for at least 15-20 yrs if the idiots would let us drill our own oil and gas. nuff said.





flag flag thumb thumb flag flag thumb thumb

Re: Ethanol [Re: Michial Thompson] #3606383 06/21/09 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Michial Thompson
Originally Posted By: FishHauler
I have seen the cost of feed of for my cattle go up because of the increase in the demand for corn. Since the "libs" are saying that cattle are making too much methane, why dont the figure a way to gather and use this "DANGEROUS" flamable gas? Ya'll ever seen the third "Mad Max"? Tina Turner was running a whole city on methane (pig farts)


Really??? The feed your buying this year was harvested last year when gas was $4.00 per gallon, and diesel even hire than that. I'm guessing that has way more to do with the cost of your feed than the demand for ethonol....

When the price of Sugar goes up to astronimic points then I will believe that ethonol is causing food costs to increast substantially.

please explain to us how the cost of sugar has anything to do with ethanol in this country, we use corn and soy beans for our bio fuels, corn for ethanol and soy for biodiesel. some "food" for thought-with about 3 million trucks on the road hauling literally everything you touch how many tons of soy beans would it take to fuel everyone of them just on a daily basis, how many tons of corn would it take to keep every car on the road fueled with ethanol (just an e85 blend). short answer you can't do it we could grow soy beans on every acre of farm land in this country and not have enough for biodiesel, the more states that require ethanol the more corn needed to make it and as the demand rises so does the price, simple supply and demand. we need to drill for and produce our own oil and gas while we develop other means to supply our needs. this puts people to work, creates royalty payments for mineral owners, and keeps our dollars in our country not the countrys that want us dead or out of existance. with ethanols loss of mpg (say its 15%) that would mean you need to burn at least 10% more gas to make up the difference (guesstamating) so there we go buying more oil from the middle east and elsewhere, get the picture. DRILL BABY DRILL!



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Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3606709 06/21/09 06:20 PM
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It's all right now. Soon every one that eats beef will see a rise in those prices. Then we'll see how the Iowa farmers like the ethenol idea.


Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3607173 06/21/09 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: hopalong123
Originally Posted By: Michial Thompson
Originally Posted By: FishHauler
I have seen the cost of feed of for my cattle go up because of the increase in the demand for corn. Since the "libs" are saying that cattle are making too much methane, why dont the figure a way to gather and use this "DANGEROUS" flamable gas? Ya'll ever seen the third "Mad Max"? Tina Turner was running a whole city on methane (pig farts)


Really??? The feed your buying this year was harvested last year when gas was $4.00 per gallon, and diesel even hire than that. I'm guessing that has way more to do with the cost of your feed than the demand for ethonol....

When the price of Sugar goes up to astronimic points then I will believe that ethonol is causing food costs to increast substantially.

please explain to us how the cost of sugar has anything to do with ethanol in this country, we use corn and soy beans for our bio fuels, corn for ethanol and soy for biodiesel. some "food" for thought-with about 3 million trucks on the road hauling literally everything you touch how many tons of soy beans would it take to fuel everyone of them just on a daily basis, how many tons of corn would it take to keep every car on the road fueled with ethanol (just an e85 blend). short answer you can't do it we could grow soy beans on every acre of farm land in this country and not have enough for biodiesel, the more states that require ethanol the more corn needed to make it and as the demand rises so does the price, simple supply and demand. we need to drill for and produce our own oil and gas while we develop other means to supply our needs. this puts people to work, creates royalty payments for mineral owners, and keeps our dollars in our country not the countrys that want us dead or out of existance. with ethanols loss of mpg (say its 15%) that would mean you need to burn at least 10% more gas to make up the difference (guesstamating) so there we go buying more oil from the middle east and elsewhere, get the picture. DRILL BABY DRILL!


First off Alcohol production is more efficent with Sugar, and you will see price increases more in sugar because there is less sugar produced domestically than corn. A good percentage of the alcohol consumed in the use is Sugar based rather than corn. Corn gets the rap by the polititians because it is a huge domestic product.

Your math is way way off actually. Using the curren mix of 90/10 you loose 15% efficiency on ONLY 10% of the fuel. Using simple numbers for every 100 gallons you pump into your tank, 10 gallons are alcohol. So 15% of that 10 gallons is 1.5 gallons which means you use 91.5 gallons of Gas and 10 gallons of alcohol to equan that same 100 gallons of gas. Still a reduction of 8.5 gallons of gasoline.

I've never said that alcohol was the long term answer, I've been saying for years all it will do is shift our dependancy from the Middle East to South America. Alcohol on the other hand is an excellent short term solution until better technologies come along.

Oil drilling ALWAYS going to be needed, just not for gasoline, think about it plastics, fiberglass, foams, insulations, even Aluminium depends on chemicals that come from Oil. E85 and E10 are good short term solutions that will reduce the oil we buy from other countries, and bring it to levels thatwe can support with our own oil.

And if you think Alcohols don't produce jobs in this country your blind, my farm employs 18 people, 5 of which are full time. The equipment and supplies that I buy create jobs as well. And the royalties that you talk about paying mineral owners is no different than the money paid to me for the farm. The only difference is who those people are.

Re: Ethanol [Re: Michial Thompson] #3607178 06/21/09 09:34 PM
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Re: Ethanol [Re: James Tucker] #3607191 06/21/09 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: FishHauler
It's all right now. Soon every one that eats beef will see a rise in those prices. Then we'll see how the Iowa farmers like the ethenol idea.


Last year my fuel expenses nearly trippled for harvesting, and my gross revenue remained pretty close to the same as the year before. I could care less if you cow costs you more to feed this year, I lost substantial amounts of money last year trying to havest corn. These patetic attempts at arguing against alcohol have been around since the 80s, and are never substantiated by real science, but rather backwoods mechanics looking for excuses to feed their customers as to why they have to overcharge them for work done on engines.

You of course do realize that the majority of the beef consumed in this country comes from South America right??? So who cares if a Texan has to pay more for feed corn, their cattle isn't likely to influence the price of beef enough to make a difference.

Re: Ethanol [Re: Bruce's] #3607805 06/22/09 02:03 AM
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Your math is way way off actually. Using the curren mix of 90/10 you loose 15% efficiency on ONLY 10% of the fuel. Using simple numbers for every 100 gallons you pump into your tank, 10 gallons are alcohol. So 15% of that 10 gallons is 1.5 gallons which means you use 91.5 gallons of Gas and 10 gallons of alcohol to equan that same 100 gallons of gas. Still a reduction of 8.5 gallons of gasoline.

o k so how did I loose on only 10% of the fuel? 15% is on the total consumption for the vehicle hence you loose 15% on 100 gals not 10 = 15 gal.= 1.5 gal. gas to make up the difference. I said I was guesstamating because I am not 100% sure of the #'s could be more or less. regardless take the total # of cars on the road and multiply by 1.5 gal. per 100 gal. of fuel burned for the ethanol blend and viola thats alot of fuel.
I'm not trying to bash you and I applaud you for working like you do on the farm (I grew up on an alfafa/vegetable farm)but the ethanol blend is not the answer now or later, current vehicles (except the flexfuel) are not engineered to handle the alcohol and unless the govt. is going to pay for the repairs needed for alcohol damage then we dont need it. get all the vehicles on the road flexfueled and then I wont have near the problem with it I do now although I will still say natural gas/propane is the better choice. last off I am curious where this sugar is coming from? brazil uses 100% ethanol in all the vehicles they run and I don't know of any sugar producers that we import from that can supply that kind of quantity as on a per capita basis I think we have alot more vehicles on the road than they do and am guessing it would take a similar amount of sugar to mix in with our 22 million barrels of oil a day.


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Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3607927 06/22/09 02:39 AM
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I get 2 to3 mpg more on non ethanol fule than gas with it. So as long as I can get gas without it I will. The money in my pocket is better than being in someone elses.

Re: Ethanol [Re: hopalong] #3608641 06/22/09 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: hopalong123
Your math is way way off actually. Using the curren mix of 90/10 you loose 15% efficiency on ONLY 10% of the fuel. Using simple numbers for every 100 gallons you pump into your tank, 10 gallons are alcohol. So 15% of that 10 gallons is 1.5 gallons which means you use 91.5 gallons of Gas and 10 gallons of alcohol to equan that same 100 gallons of gas. Still a reduction of 8.5 gallons of gasoline.

o k so how did I loose on only 10% of the fuel? 15% is on the total consumption for the vehicle hence you loose 15% on 100 gals not 10 = 15 gal.= 1.5 gal. gas to make up the difference. I said I was guesstamating because I am not 100% sure of the #'s could be more or less. regardless take the total # of cars on the road and multiply by 1.5 gal. per 100 gal. of fuel burned for the ethanol blend and viola thats alot of fuel.
I'm not trying to bash you and I applaud you for working like you do on the farm (I grew up on an alfafa/vegetable farm)but the ethanol blend is not the answer now or later, current vehicles (except the flexfuel) are not engineered to handle the alcohol and unless the govt. is going to pay for the repairs needed for alcohol damage then we dont need it. get all the vehicles on the road flexfueled and then I wont have near the problem with it I do now although I will still say natural gas/propane is the better choice. last off I am curious where this sugar is coming from? brazil uses 100% ethanol in all the vehicles they run and I don't know of any sugar producers that we import from that can supply that kind of quantity as on a per capita basis I think we have alot more vehicles on the road than they do and am guessing it would take a similar amount of sugar to mix in with our 22 million barrels of oil a day.


There is a HUGE difference between FlexFuel and E10, E10 has been around since the late 70s early 80s and every car on the market is already engineered to handle it. E10 is the 10% ethonol that you currently get when pumping gasoline into your car. My guess is that since Texas does not require the station owner to tell you it's there, you've been getting it for years because it cheaper to buy that 100% gas.

E85 or Flexfuel is another story, it's not the answer to anyone's problem, short or long term. Neither is 100% ethonol. 100% ethonol is DANGEROUS, it burns with a clear flame, and should not be on any street. Its the reason NASCAR requires special suits on the cars and the crew. E85 looses too much power for it's cost, and as you said, the farming insdustry cannot support the requirements for it.

You've missed my point a dozen times, first off using your logic, you are claiming to use more gas when you are saving gas so its a HUGE savings...

And my point is THERE IS NO DAMAGE BEING CAUSED BY ALCOHOL. Mechanics are full of carp, the ONLY cars being damaged are the ones from the 60s and early 70s, NOTHING after that is being damaged because the materials for gaskets and fuel lines all changed...

These MYTHS have been around forever, first about removing lead from gas, now about alcohol, and eventually about whatever the next fuel is and so on and on and on....

Show me REAL SCIENCE proving your point that there is damage being caused??? There is NONE, only backwood ignorant mechanic looking for an excuse to make you feel better about over paying them

Last edited by Michial Thompson; 06/22/09 01:05 PM.
Re: Ethanol [Re: armadillo joe] #3608650 06/22/09 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: armadillo joe
I get 2 to3 mpg more on non ethanol fule than gas with it. So as long as I can get gas without it I will. The money in my pocket is better than being in someone elses.


MPG might be higher with pure gas, but so is $$$ per mile too, so it's a wash for you, your still spending the same money either way. My logic, why not take care of the environment and be a part of screwing the middle east rather than screwing America by being part of the problem.

But soon you'll have no choice, the trend is for the states to require the E10 blend, and your amongst the minority and won't be able to stop the tractor that's rolling your way....

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